Thank you for our attendings and residents who volunteered their time at 7pm on a wonderful Tuesday to give their advice. I'm going to let the three attending speakers introduce themselves and then let the resident speakers introduce themselves. Ashley, I'll just nominate you first to introduce yourself. Hi guys, I'm Ashley Bolger. I am coming to you from Cincinnati where I clinically practice pediatric physiatry, but I'm also the program director of the combined program here and then I do pretty much everything with medical students as well. And then I also serve, you'll hear a little bit about it later tonight, on a task force with Dr. Romanowski as well trying to kind of bring applications into the next generation. So I'm going to pass it to you, Dr. Romanowski, since you're next on my screen. All right, good evening everyone. Natasha Romanowski here. Good evening to those where it is past 8 o'clock. I am program director at Penn State Health in Hershey, Pennsylvania. I also work in a few roles on some committees directly with the AAMC and with the ARIS application over this last year and hopefully for the upcoming year. So I welcome any of your feedback that we gather through tonight's discussion as well. And Dr. Tonkin. Yeah, good evening everybody. My name is Brian Tonkin. I'm the program director at the University of Minnesota and the Twin Cities of Minnesota. I also help facilitate some of the clerkships, though I don't direct them, but certainly medical education doesn't just stop with medical school. So I appreciate the chance to be on here and speak with some of my colleagues. And then resident-wise, Raza, I'll nominate you first to introduce yourself. Hi, I'm Raza. I'm a PGY2 at Kessler and JMS. I also sit on the RFC as the digital outreach program chair and as the technology representative. Eric? Hi everyone. I'm Eric. I'm a PGY2 at Mount Sinai. I also serve on the AAP RFC and I'm on the AAP membership committee as well. And Mark. Hi everybody. I'm Mark Volker. I'm a PGY4 at University of Minnesota. I'm also on the AAP RFC as the medical student affairs representative. Awesome. So we're going to get started because we've got a solid 55 minutes and I want us to end at 8 p.m. Central, 9 p.m. Eastern. So what we're going to do is we're going to just do some question and answer. These are going to be questions that have already been submitted via Twitter or through various resources and methods. So if you have any specific questions, use the chat. All of us will try our best to answer it. What we will do is at the end of this entire event, we'll take all of the questions and make sure that we look at all of the answers and then we'll post it on the AAP. So you can use that as a reference guide as well. And of course, Amy has been gracious enough to record this. So all this will be recorded for you to review at any point in time. The first thing that we wanted to talk about was what we were hoping to maybe have some sample about selected experiences, meaningful experiences, impactful experiences, basically the new application. But we came to the consensus that we really don't know because it's our first year having all these components. And we did not want to guide you in the wrong way and just have this select group answer the application a certain way. And then people that didn't join this answered a different way because we don't have a sample size of anything to be able to guide you. What I would tell you is that in the impactful experiences is, you know, that area is really designed to for residents or students, excuse me, that have gone through specific adversity in their life, whether they're the first person that's gone to college or med school, came from a, you know, experienced poverty when they were younger. If you experienced different types of discrimination, that's that location. So if you do come from a privileged background, you know, just be very thoughtful of what you consider adversity. So you can talk to your family and friends if you write something of, hey, this is truly adversity, because you want to look at this in the context of other people's experiences. So remember, you can always leave that blank if, if it's not anything that you want to mention, you have the rest of your application to make yourself the greatest candidate in the world. I did want to highlight Dr. Romanowski. She had some thoughts and some advice that I thought was really, really great. So Dr. Romanowski, if you want to just let everyone know. Certainly, I'd be happy to. So as mentioned, I'll start kind of right there with the impactful section. That is really not meant to be a mandatory section. That is meant as just described for any sort of difficulty or adversity. If you feel that you have information to put there, I certainly encourage it. But please know that program directors have been reminded that this is an area, if you think that it might add to your story. Otherwise, it's certainly not necessary. So I want to spend a little a couple more minutes just talking about the 10 experiences and the three most meaningful because I, I'm finding I think that's where candidates are really getting stuck. And this is new. This is very new to all of us. And I'm sure you're all a little tired of hearing that because you want to know, what do I do? How do I use this information? And so my advice is just to remember that these 10 experiences should help you but never hurt you. If you are someone who maybe doesn't have 10 experiences to list, you are not required to. You should be able to speak to every experience that you list for several minutes. So I think one of the questions submitted that we may speak about is what is the interview format? How does that look? And it's, it's vastly different amongst programs. But you know, just give you an example. Some of your interviews may be 15 to 30 minutes. And so be very mindful of the experiences that you're listing. They should be things that you can speak to, that you feel like you can share information about what was your role in that experience? What did you learn from it? What skill set did you gain? Those types of pieces of information. As far as how to put information there, I think it is dependent on maybe your writing style. I found a lot of applicants are putting a small paragraph of information that you can really speak to. If you are someone who maybe feels like you have maybe more than 10 experiences, and you're really struggling and how to narrow that down. I just encourage you to be mindful of trying not to cram everything in. You know, the the the intent and the directions are to list 10 experiences. And so we really encourage you to be thoughtful, to read the directions on what to put there. We want you to be mindful of your attention to detail and not trying to squeeze in too many things that maybe can be interpreted as maybe difficult to read and difficult to ask you questions about. Something else I wanted to share that has really resonated with me as we've been working through this process is, and I know this is a while away for many of you, but as faculty, when we're looking at different areas of promotion or different academic ranks, we are oftentimes only allowed to submit actually five pieces of scholarship. And that just reminded me, I think it's very similar to what we're experiencing within the application realm right now, is now you all as applicants are only allowed to submit 10. And for many of you, that might be really difficult. And so just be reminded, the goal of the application is not to know everything about you, but what is most impactful for you. It doesn't even have to relate to physiatry. It can just be something that you can speak about. Don't feel the need to put all these things that only are related to physiatry if you don't feel like you can speak to it. And then I think the last thing I'll add is out of those 10 experiences, there is an area to define the three most meaningful. And that can get really tricky on how, what's the difference there? What do you need to put in that section? And so if you read the little prompt above the meaningful section, I think there's really three big keywords to look at there. It says to reflect on your experiences, think about why it was meaningful and how it influenced you. And so this is where you really want to share that reflection. Think of it as like journaling. How did this transform you? The three meaningful sections is not meant to be a task list of the skills that it taught you. That goes above in the experiences section. So I hope that helps to kind of define experiences as what skills you learned and the most meaningful is how it impacted you or how it influenced you. And just to be thoughtful because your interviewers are very likely to ask you questions about those topics and just make sure that they're things that you feel like you can speak to. And maybe I'll pause there and see if others have things to add. I mean, I think that's a great summary. I think the only other thing I would say maybe a little more explicitly, and if you were with us on the last webinar, we talked about this a lot because I know there was a lot of questions, is similar to what Dr. Romanosky said, don't try to game the system. I think there was a lot of people trying to figure out ways to batch experiences and list it under one heading. And I think while some of that is probably okay, if it seems to go under a common theme and it's, for example, I think the one we may have given was adaptive sports. If you had a lot of involvement with a particular organization, but they did a lot of different kind of one experience things, that's fine to list altogether. But I think I've heard a lot of students and are advising currently a lot of students that they're just trying to figure out how do I put more in my application. And I would just say more is not better. Like that's the whole point of going to this 10 list is more is not better. So kind of think about that as you craft those 10 plus three or 10 and three, I should say, but. I don't think I have much else to add other than to say we understand that there's a lot of pressure. This is a change from what the people before you have done. So you feel like you've lost a little bit of a resource. Usually you could ask the class ahead of you in your context, they're kind of what happened in it. And it looks very different. So we understand there's some stress, but like was mentioned at the very beginning, we just, we're all kind of sorting it out together for this first year. Last year it was the supplemental application. Now it is the application. And so we'll, we'll have a lot more to offer. I think after we go through a cycle or two. Awesome. Thank you. All right. So I believe Daniel and I will go back and forth with the specific questions to the resident and attending group. Everyone feel free to put in questions and we'll do our best to answer them via the chat, okay? So question number one is, these are the first part of this will be all about application submission questions. So question one was, what is the etiquette in asking for updates on whether or not you will receive an interview? I can at least start that conversation. So one of the things we've really tried to encourage through some of our communication this year is transparency of programs. I envision that that's not gonna be consistent across the board, but I think my first advice is to make sure that if you're gonna reach out to a program that you look to see if they've posted kind of their timeline and when are they releasing interview days? When should you expect that? That was really what we've been trying to encourage programs to do. And I think, I don't know, me personally, if I've posted that in some places that I think are pretty common game and I'm getting questions, it kind of goes to like you maybe didn't do your full research or look into it. So I would just be cautious about that. But I think it just depends on the program. I think I wouldn't badger people and I would give people plenty of time. What is time? I think every program's a little bit different, but if you don't hear from somebody in two weeks, like give it a little more time. We're doing our best to try to do a holistic review and look through all of these applications. And so, don't expect necessarily to get a ton of interviews in the first week because most of us are still digging through our applications. So I don't know if anybody else has anything more to add to that, but. I don't think I have more to add. The goal is to walk the line of trying to get the information that you need to help you make your decisions and not feel so anxious, but also not be a bother. So I think especially early on, give it the time that it needs, like Dr. Bolger mentioned. And then hopefully with the encouragement from AAP and the task force and everything, the transparency will help. And I think that's the goal. I think that's the goal. I think that's the goal. And that may also be transparency in an email that says, thanks, but no thanks. And that might help you at least check off the list. So that's a lot of no thanks emails for every program. I mean, we only interview so much each time and we're getting way more applications than that. So I think each program is doing their best, but especially early on, just give it the time. It takes a while to do it right. Daniel, do you want to do question two? Sure. So going off of that, what is the typical timeline for programs reviewing applications and then offering interviews? I would say that vastly varies, but to try to give something specific, I would say that it's a lot of time. So if you're doing an interview, you're going to have a lot of time So I would say that vastly varies, but to try to give something specific, I would say it's not uncommon for programs to take a month, three to four weeks after ARIS opens to get applications out. Many programs likely may be doing a rolling basis like a batch at one point and a second batch at a later point. And probably most have interview invites out probably by the end of the year, kind of at the end of December-ish, just to give some examples. Yeah, I agree with you. I think it's going to depend on each individual program to some degree. I think it probably depends a little bit on size of the program and how many students they're interviewing. Some of the larger programs that interview more students, I've heard more of the rolling admission. Still, I think expect a couple of weeks, but they're more doing batches as opposed to smaller programs that may not interview as much. They sort of are going more on the look at everybody because we only have so many number of spots and we want to make sure we looked at everybody. So I think those may take a little bit longer, but I agree. I agree that like kind of two to four week mark depending on the program is probably reasonable, at least for our first batch. I know when, excuse me. I know when I was applying and as I'm applying for fellowship, there's what I call the anxiety spreadsheet out there that kind of is a public facing spreadsheet that applicants go in and list when they get interviews and things like that. You don't have to necessarily look at the one from this year, but if you look at the one from last year, you can get a decent idea of when programs tend to submit. Just be aware that year to year, especially with ERS kind of changing this year, those can shift, but it's a good place that I like to go to just kind of get an idea of how long it takes for individual programs. And just to echo what Dr. Bolger said, a lot of times program directors and program leadership, even if it's just coordinators, will be transparent about when things are going out. So don't trust information from an anonymous spreadsheet blindly. Take your information from the source. It's always the best. Primary sources are the best places to go when you wanna know when things are actually going out. Great. All right, question three. What do I do if I get an invitation from a program that is a backup program, but I still want to wait more time until I hear from a more desired program? Should you take the invitation and then cancel later, wait with the danger of then missing out on the interview itself? I don't know if anybody else has any thoughts, but I think most, you know, our recommendations are to give people, I think, what did we decide, 48 to 72 hours to accept an invite. And if you don't take it, it's gone. I would just, with the number of applications we're getting, that's sort of where we're at at this point. So I think you have to make that decision potentially of, you know, what kind of student are you? Are you willing to place that risk or are you not? And I think you'd probably get 50% one answer and 50% the other answer. I do think if you have to cancel for whatever reason, you know, we just ask that you give the programs adequate time because we'd love to be able to fill it with another applicant that also would like the spot, so. And please try to enjoy your clinical experiences and don't feel like you need to respond within five minutes. PM&R has historically never had the problem of an interview going away because you didn't respond to it within, you know, the hour. So give it a couple hours, give it a day, that's okay. But please respond. Yeah, if we're not getting responses after several days, maybe then programs may be concerned, but please give it a moment to think through it so that you're not missing out on your other experiences. Yeah, I think it's really important to think about what you are like, you know, if you can handle that kind of risk, I guess, or gambling, you know, and saying, you know, I'm gonna decline this politely, thank you for the invitation, really appreciate it, but I'm not able to make it at this time, you know, or something like that. Of course, you're gonna be professional in your responses and everything. But I think a lot of that has to come into where you're at. And I think you have an idea in your head which programs you're really hoping to hear from, those that you would like to hear from and those that you would be okay hearing from, or however you stratify that in your head. And so where that program lands that emailed you, I think is gonna factor in certainly. But if you're, we're hoping that all the programs will extend that 48, 72 hours, but if you don't respond within that time, you know, then please don't feel offended if by the time you do respond, the program has moved on to the next person and vice versa. If you do accept it, and then later find that top program on your wishlist interview, that would bump that one out. Same thing, just some professional communication is really appreciated as far in advance as possible to allow the program to fill up that next interview spot is really, really appreciated. The day before, the day of cancellations, those are really, just don't leave a good taste in our mouth and it really leaves us high and dry. There's no way we can fill a spot at that point in time. And so, so yeah. One of the things that I would impress upon to all of you is what constitutes a great candidate now versus five years ago has completely changed, especially with the step scores going away and a lot of the med school grades being changed. So even if you've got a great step score, in the olden days, people would tell you, oh my gosh, you're gonna match, that 260 was good enough. Now that we're looking at holistic applications, don't just think I got one good score and this is a slam dunk. And you might hear it from a lot of old school attendings, oh, you're gonna be fine. It's so important that you have everything else. So with that being said, we really don't know what a good and bad candidate is anymore until we've seen all these great responses that we've written down. So if you think about how many interviews you're gonna do, just think about what number you feel comfortable doing and the number that you don't wanna go over because then you're gonna be missing all of med school. I think it's fine for you to have one or two or even three backup programs that come through and you just accept it. And so, all right, I've got three programs that I applied to they're in a decent city, I'm cool with that because you don't know if that amazing step score or whatever you think is cool is gonna translate to everybody. So just take the first two or three, it's kind of like taking a couple of pitches and then after that, start being very selective so you can fill it up with the programs you really like. All right, Daniel. What is the etiquette in declining an interview or canceling an interview after having accepted it? You guys went into a little bit of detail but could you maybe provide a little bit more specifics? So typically an email is adequate. I think to Dr. Costa, I think to Dr. Cossie's point of what is a good candidate and looking at holistic review, I think professionalism factors into that as well. So be professional, be timely, be I think courteous but also very explicit in your email so that there's no gray zone. It's very clear that you're canceling the interview. Thank you and we can move on from that. And I would add, this shouldn't be a point of stress. Like don't feel bad that you're gonna offend the program or whatever and we talk often about how PM&R is a small community across the country but that kind of timely professional communication doesn't do anything to you as an applicant or a potential future colleague. So I would say, don't worry about that. If you're somebody who did like three research projects with us and rotated with us and spent a lot of time with us and then you said, no, that would feel kind of weird. But I think otherwise we know that's just how it is. Like it's not a problem at all. And I would say, I think there's maybe one, maybe two program directors. I'm not saying it by actual knowledge. I'm just saying it generally who would probably write your name down and saying like, I hate this person forever. But for the most of us, we are going to forget. And you're actually, for me, I just say, thank you for not wasting my time because you're clearly not interested. So don't even worry about it. Just like everyone said, no one is going to remember and just be a professional because you might want to get a job at that location one day. All right, the next one is, is there any advantage to submitting your application on the first day of submissions that submissions open? Do the applications submitted first get looked first or is there a specific date when all applications get downloaded? What do you all feel? Robbie, can you repeat that question? Sorry, I was answering the chat and I totally. Oh, it's all right. Did not fully pay attention. It's like being at home. I know, right? Is there any advantage to submitting your application on the first day when submissions open? Do applications that get submitted first get looked at first? I had more time to think about it since Dr. Boulder was replying to the chat. I don't think there's any advantage. I think talking with some of my current residents, it seems very different than the pain match cycle where it's very much a prolonged sort of thing. This seems like a much more compact thing, but we look at every application and we kind of set an arbitrary deadline of like end of October to have your application in. So if you can't get it in the first five weeks, then maybe we should talk about that. But really if it's a week later or two weeks later, it's still on the list before we send out our interview invitations. And I think a lot of programs are gonna do it that way. I would be timely. I wouldn't wait a month. I wouldn't wait several weeks, but I don't know that there's an advantage of day one versus day four. We keep an eye on the list and as more applications come in, they're added to the list so that we don't miss anybody as we go through. Yeah, I would echo that. I think most within those first two to four week kind of timeframe probably for most programs doesn't matter. I will say the one caveat is unique to the program I direct, cause we take one resident and it's a much smaller applicant pool and it's a much more complicated two day interview process. So we just kind of, I would say if you're applying to Peds Rehab, I would say get it in within the first week, but past that for a general PM&R spot, I don't think you have to worry about a whole week. This is my viewpoint on it. I may be a little old school, but you guys have all the time in the world. So there should be no excuse for not getting the application in on time. So just put it in on time. The only things that you might be waiting for is someone writing a letter of recommendation, which in that case you can submit most of it or just talk to your letter writers are usually very understanding and very, honestly, they're gonna be apologetic. Like, you know what? It's my fault, I'm gonna get it done today. And a lot of you have really close relationships with a lot of these great letter writers as well, but just get it done the first day just to eliminate that anxiety. All right, next question. In the era of virtual interviews, is there an advantage to visiting programs in person and are there rules against visiting programs? Now that interviews are virtual. The only recommendation that we've come to a consensus of, every program's doing it a little bit differently. Some are not offering anything official, some are, but the guideline that we put out was if you're gonna offer, quote unquote, second looks or in-person visits, then your rank list should be certified and finalized. So basically saying, if you're gonna come for a second look, it's not gonna have any impact on whether, where or whether we put you on the rank list. So just to be transparent. So it's not gonna give applicants who can afford to do multiple of those an advantage necessarily. But I would certainly encourage you to come visit if you're like, you know, your top couple of choices and you're trying to decide where you wanna live for the next four years. Like, that makes very intuitive sense, you know, if I were going through it this way, but it won't necessarily help you. Actually, as a, just a side comment, let's say a candidate says, I am in your city and it's middle of December. Can I just come for a day just to say hello? How should we all navigate that? Cause that goes to the whole thing of, they may have the finances to do it, you know. Brian and Natasha, do you wanna, I mean, we've talked about this, I feel like so much in our group. But I mean, the blanket statement is that as a program, we shouldn't be probably entering them is what I would answer that as, you know, I'm sure that there probably will be places to do, but. And I think it feels a little bit like the second look kind of conversation that people have been having. And there'll probably be some programs out there that wanna wade into that area. And I think the most prudent and equitable thing to do would be to remove anybody from the ranking or interview committee from the experience when that student comes by. And so if they say, I wanna pop in didactics, that's great. Maybe it's another faculty member who's not on the selection committee that's speaking that day. You know, if you have chief residents who are interviewing, maybe you pull them out, you know, it just gets money there. But I think just to keep everything on the up and up, I think what we've talked about for the second look discussion is to have people just separate from, people from the ranking and interview committee separate from any experience like that. All right. And I think, you know, while this my comment is the things that Ashley had said, Dr. Bulger had said, you guys should follow suit. So don't put the onus on the program. Don't test the program to go. Just try to follow the rules and just say, all right, I'm going to wait until February to do that visit to so. All right. Next question. I will get my step scores after the application closes. How bad does this look and what should we do? I'm assuming it's going to be step two score or could be the step one pass fail score. So either one. I would say that's that's common and I don't have statistics, but every medical school is vastly different in regards to the timing that the some of these tests are recommended. So maybe 50 50. I mean, others can weigh in on their experiences. I think it vastly depends on your school. I don't think it should hurt you. And if it's I know the question was after it closes. So after it closes, there's really nothing you can do at that point. If a score becomes available midseason, feel free to notify a program so that they can go back and look at that information. But it's it's not uncommon. Yeah, I think the other part of this, too, is just the transition to step one now being pass fail and only having that step two score. I know our medical school is really recommending all of our students to have taken it and to have a step two score before application season opens, because I think there's a lot of thought that even though there's not a step one score now, everybody's just going to kind of use step twos for those specialties that use board scores. I mean, I think, again, like going back to some previous comments, like Kaminar has never been one that's like, oh, my gosh, you have to have a 250 or a 260 or you're not even getting an interview. That's just not who we are as a field. And so I don't think it's going to be necessarily as big of a deal. I've heard of a lot of programs that you have to have passed step one before they will offer you an interview. So that definitely I don't know if any I mean, we definitely have that kind of informal rule for us. I don't know if that's super common, not common. I have no idea. But I've definitely heard of a handful of programs that do it. It might, it might end up being a filter, you know, for, you know, people that have at least passed up step one. And this will be a side conversation about the etiquette and everything else. I think you could probably there's like a top 10 programs that you like, you can always email them saying, I failed step one. But if you actually end up passing it in the middle of November, let's say then they can hopefully be able to pull your application and take a look at it. But if it's still pending, at the time, you might get filtered out to be honest, right? I mean, we all have to use some filters. But you know, if we got a token from somebody, I'm just saying personally, if we got a token from somebody geographic preference, your application looks great. We have a pending step one scores, we might say, all right, we're going to roll the dice, but your rank list is going to be dependent on you actually passing this test, you know? Okay, next question. Should an applicant discuss a difficult life struggle or a board failure in the impactful experience, says ERAS section, or on the personal statement, or both? I think my, I think my preference and my, my guidance, I guess, is, you know, I think you certainly want to speak to those challenges at some point, you know, I think they will get asked about in the interview. And I think you want to be able to explain kind of what happened. And life happens, right? People go through difficult, challenging things that impacts their medical education, their ability to take a step test, whatever it is. And I think, you know, I don't know that I would draw all the attention to it by putting it in your impactful and your most meaningful experience in your personal statement, you know, I don't know that you need to go that far. But I would probably, I would probably talk about it at some point, because I think as we do our holistic review, we're going to, we notice a lot of things, you know, we notice remediation in classes, we notice step failures, we notice different things. And so oftentimes, those will come up in the interview, but I think, you know, maybe again, transparency is the word about that is is helpful and into your advantage, but again, not, not making that a highlight of your application would be sort of a goal that probably differs from program to program. So I'd be interested what my colleagues think about that, too. Agree. And per Eris, if you read the, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, per Eris, if you read the, read the fine print, this is the time will tell you to read the fine print, not when you're reading package insert on Google. But the impactful experience is meant to be information that is not captured elsewhere in your application. But I think I would go back to my earlier advice about experiences. This section shouldn't hurt you, it should help you. And so if there's something you feel that's impactful, please put it there. But as Dr. Tonkin said, you know, you don't need to, you know, list a course failure or things like that in every aspect of the application. Again, everyone probably feel a little bit differently. Personal statement might be an area to put that. I will say from the AAMC's perspective, this section is not meant to include information about course or step failures. However, I don't know that that's widely known from everyone. This is a brand new section. But wanted to share that information as well. I don't have much else to add. I think there's going to be a wide variety of what people do this first year. And I would echo everybody else in that, put it somewhere and own it and tell us what you learned about it. But I don't need to hear about it five times. Then it just kind of overwhelms your application. All right. The final question for the application submission part. If you are couples matching and are both applying to physiatry, what is the etiquette to ask for an interview at a program that your partner received an interview at, but you did not? I would say just ask, you know. I don't know if a program would rescind an offer if you're terrible and your partner is amazing. I mean, lucky you, you've got an amazing partner. That's a good way to know who's better. But I would just say ask, but let the rest of you decide. It doesn't hurt to ask. We can't promise. I don't think anybody can promise that they're going to do it depending on the situation, but I would agree. There's no harm in asking. Yeah, because when you ask at the same time, you can kind of communicate the names, you know, because in the ERAS applications, there's a little thing up here that says couples matching, the name of the other person, the specialty they're applying to. So we can see that. But especially if the last names are different, we might not even make that connection. We would probably notice when it said specialty applying to PM&R. I hope that we would notice that. But I think the ask would be helpful maybe to draw a little bit more attention to that. I would assume that if you guys are partners, you'd be doing a lot of things together. So your application should be similar in terms of the experiences. You're probably studying together, probably both have good scores because you're not out partying, hopefully. And so I think the applications would be the same. We'd probably offer, say like, oh, that was an oversight. Let's offer the interview. OK, let's get into the next section. I think this should go more quickly. I'll just do the first one. This is all about interviews. So how should one practice for an interview? Maybe the resident group could give their two cents. Yeah, I can touch in on this. Yeah, I think that one of the things that I did initially that I kind of learned quickly that wasn't really the right approach was I think I had prepared too much, honestly. And I think like in my first interview, I was a little bit scripted and kind of was trying to hit every single bullet point I wanted to talk about. But I think very quickly, I realized that these interviews are pretty conversational. And we're all going to be future colleagues together. And these faculty members really just want to hear from you and get to know you for who you are. So I really just try to approach it like a conversation. I know it's kind of difficult, but when you're practicing, just pretend like you're talking to kind of like a professional colleague or like a peer and just try to talk a little bit more casually, but still professional. And I think maybe just a second, more specific piece of information that I got that was helpful was since virtual, since like interviews are virtual, you know, you can put like little sticky notes on your computer. And of course, you can put little, you know, tidbits of helpful information. But something for me that was good was just putting like an arrow like on my actual camera button on the computer, just to like remember to look at the camera. I think it's easy to just kind of let your eyes go. But that was also really helpful. So it's just my two cents there, I think. Eric, I actually put one that said smile at the camera. And because I realized that it's tough, especially when you're talking alone to yourself or to somebody else in a room, you can get very straight face if you're not having somebody to like feedback to you. But to build off what Eric said, there's a lot of resources available out there. A lot of people have posted like previous interview questions. So you can get an idea of the kinds of things you're going to be asked. AAP has a great mentorship program. I actually did sign up in the summer before I submitted my IRS application. And my mentor, who was a PGY-4 at the time, kind of coached me through a mock interview. Also, I know AOC PM&R has resources and mock interviews available. And I can't express enough what Eric was saying. It has to be conversational. If you write something down, like a why PM&R or tell me about yourself question, say it out loud, please. Because I guarantee you it sounds great on paper, but it can sound very robotic. It can sound very forced if you say it just for the first time of the day. And also, if you were getting an interview, somebody saw something in you that they liked on your application, so just take a breath. Realize that they liked you. So it's OK to be yourself. Yeah, I don't think I have too much to add to that. I think the only thing I would say is the way I start preparing for interviews is I think about experiences or patient interactions or things that really stood out to me. And just writing them down on a little bullet point to remind myself that those are the things, those are the talking points that are meaningful to me and that I can bring up in various different ways throughout the interview. As far as practice, as far as practicing for it, I think hopefully all of you have found a mentor of some sort at this point and asking them, you know, hey, can we just do a mock interview just and get some feedback from that has been really helpful for me. And I know I'm planning to do that going into the fellowship interview season, too. So I think that would be the best thing is just to actually do the do the practice by answering the questions with somebody in front of you or over Zoom. Great, Daniel, next question. What does a typical virtual interview schedule look like? How long are the interviews? And are there different groups or different people? How does that look? What does that look like? I think a general format is going to be some type of informational session, maybe as a large group on the Zoom where there's information presented about the program, introductions, things like that. Here's our training sites. Here's maybe a mock-up schedule of what your four years, three years could look like. Here's some of our key characteristics. I think there's a lot of things that are standardized by the ACGME across all the training programs. And so I think oftentimes there's a chance for the program to kind of highlight some of the things that they do well or do differently or things like that. And then you, I think, so after that, some type of informational session, you break into the interviews. I think like was mentioned, they can probably be anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes. You might have anywhere from four to six or maybe eight, depending on the place. And it's probably going to be a range of faculty, the program director, associate program director, maybe the chief residents are involved at that site. And that's largely going to make up, I think, probably the vast majority of the interview experiences you're going to see across the programs. But maybe I'm forgetting something. The only other thing I'd add that I think still a lot of programs are doing is some sort of resident social something or other like the night before. And that, my understanding is, looks vastly different. I don't actually even know what our residents do, but we just let it, let them do their thing. All right. Next question is, what are the typical common questions that every med student should have an answer for? And is a sub question was what are important components of answering the YPMR question, but maybe the first part. I think that's a really hard question and one that I don't, I don't know that I have an answer for. I mean, I think every place does things a little bit differently. I mean, I know the classic one is like, you know, what did you learn from, you know, a patient or, you know, that kind of stuff, or tell me a time that you were challenged or, you know, I think in general, just having some examples of like adversity or leadership or like those big kind of concepts that we're looking for in a colleague would be my best advice, but I don't know that they look like identical questions across programs necessarily. I think you should answer why you want to go to PMAR, because if you can't answer that, it's kind of like the wrong field for you, buddy. Yeah. Just make sure that's genuine too. So, you know, you don't have the same, we've talked about this personal statements. I don't say you got, you can say you got injured, but, you know, give something meaningful and thoughtful. So it's not like what questions you should be answered. It's how you answer it, you know, interweaving great relationships, great experiences, but doing it in kind of tweet format. I would just say everything should be kind of this mentally a tweet. So don't go into a five minute soliloquy about whatever, you know, whatever the reasons why you picked PMAR, but that's one question you should know. Yeah. I think briefly to kind of go off for Dr. Kossi, instead of approaching it as like, what questions should I prepare for? I think this advice I got that was good was like, think of maybe a handful of four to five different experiences that you can talk about well, like specific stories and what you glean from that, because you can really apply it to a lot of different questions, whether that's a challenge you faced, you know, sometime that maybe someone disagreed with you and you had to work with someone that was difficult, strengths, you know, weaknesses. And I think that a lot of different situations can be taken on different angles. So to really just be able to like talk about specific stories well and succinctly. And I just don't think you can underestimate the importance of practicing, even if you don't know what the content is. I think gearing up for interviews is very similar to your first clerkship experience. The first time you go to talk to a patient, you're like, what do I do? What do I ask them? Or you feel very like, you know, regimented and it doesn't feel smooth. So practice, have those discussions, sit down with people, you know, find somebody on this talk, ask one of your attendings to just, you know, have a 10 minute conversation, have them ask questions just about yourself and your journey and make sure that you can speak to that. Daniel. Next question. What questions are good slash not good to ask at the end of an interview? What are the types of questions program directors would like to hear about? I would say don't ask questions that are found on the website or was discussed by the chair. Questions that are found on the website or was discussed by the chief residents during the PowerPoint in the morning. Don't ask about the call schedule, the rotation schedule, and that's all been presented. I think asking cool, thoughtful questions like, Hey, Dr. So-and-so, I saw that you do sports medicine research and I read your paper that was published in New England Journal of Medicine two years ago. That's a nice way to suck up. I'm saying that, you know, jokingly, but just, you know, kind of show some insight. And then you can also talk about your personal interests. So you can say, you know, I'm thinking about pain or sports or pain or sports fellowship. I haven't decided. I saw Dr. So-and-so does this, do residents get to work with them early if they want to? I saw the schedule was a little rigid, but is that, is that okay? So, you know, talking about yourself and that specific question is much better than like an open-ended. I personally hate the questions of what are the strengths and weaknesses? Where do you see your program in five years? I don't know where the program is going to be five years from now, you know, hopefully still a program. So. Yeah, I think my two points are one, don't ask about anything that's been covered. And two, I hope that you're paying attention and are, and are listening and that's cuing some questions. If you're coming in with stock questions, I hope they're kind of, because you already reviewed everything and still have thoughtful questions about that, but I'm hoping, hopeful that you're, you're interacting with people that you are on interview day and something pops into your head. And that is, that is part of it. So make it a genuine question. I think can be, and then tying it to yourself, like Dr. Gossi said, is great. Okay. Next one. My favorite one. It is recommended to have a normal background, a blurry background or a fake background or any other background. Personal opinion, but a blurry or normal. The, the fake stuff bothers me when I see the, the fuzzy halo and the, you can see like through their head to the, to the real background, but that just bothers me. Totally personal opinion, subjective. I will say that I've heard that anything in your background is also fair game during your interview, just like on your IRS application. So for me, I actually put up two pictures because I want to make sure I frame my head center of the camera. So I look nice and even in my, in my zoo, but it was maps of two cities that I'd lived in and I was actually asked about them. So people do pay attention to what's in the background. I personally love a cool background. That's genuine. So like, just like those two pictures, I would have for sure asked it because it is a, it is a long interview time. So personally, I love when people have cool things in the background, guitar, music posters, record, album covers, places you've been to family, friends, whatever. I think it's, it's fun. I do agree. The fake background where you can see I'm not that interesting. Not that fun. Okay. Next question. Is it, what is the best strategy if you are having technical difficulties during the interview? How should you, what's the etiquette and how should you go about that? I would advise preparing in advance, make sure you have a phone number of who you can reach. Typically it's probably the coordinator so that you're not scrambling, trying to pull up an email, losing wifi have that ready, have that beside you log on early so that if there is a technical difficulty, it can be remedied before the interview even begins. Yeah, I don't, I don't have anything to state. Sometimes stuff does happen. And if you're honest, the program will try their best to accommodate you for another date, but they can't really promise it because these dates are tight. So sometimes that's unlucky, unfortunately. All right. Next question. We just got a couple more minutes left. What rules do programs have to follow regarding questions and communications after the interview, but prior to match? Can you repeat that one? I'm sorry. Sure, yeah. What rules do programs have to follow regarding questions and communications after the interview but prior to match? So there are strict criteria of avoiding questions like rank preferences, but asking general questions that were maybe missed during the interview is certainly reasonable. I would just advise that this is a very busy time, so I would not expect a response. Some programs may respond to everyone, others may have a blanket policy that they don't respond to anyone because they want to try to be equitable amongst all. It varies vastly, but I think it's fair to ask, but not necessarily expect information in return. And I think the main rules have to do with, on the program side, expressing, like was mentioned, rank preferences. To some degree, the applicants can tell the programs whatever they want. That is not true vice versa. And so I think you'll probably hear from programs more of a thank you for your time, appreciate it if you reach out. They should not be soliciting information from you. Where are we as a program on your rank list? Where else did you interview? How many more interviews? I mean, that's all off limits and just generally, I don't know if unethical is the word, but just not cool. So this next question is a little broad. What are the best ways to stand out during an interview? I know we talked about the background, but what other recommendations do you have? I think the one thing one of the residents had mentioned was the conversation piece. So if you go through your 10, 15 minutes and you feel like you had a great conversation, that's what's going to really make someone stand out. Because like everyone said, everyone who's got an interview met the minimum standard. And yeah, that conversation goes a long way because we want to be around people we like, not a brainiac who's just really tough to talk to. So I would really focus on that interview piece and practicing how to have a conversation. I agree. I think just being yourself, making it unique to you, telling your PM&R story are the best things that you can do. All right. We're down to our final question because we've got two minutes left. So what does it take to be a PM&R? What does it take to be a good PM&R? All right. We're down to our final question because we've got two minutes left. So what does the deliberation process look like when programs make their application rank list? At University of Minnesota, we just usually pull names out of a hat. That's all we do. Good luck, everyone. No, I'm just kidding. I'm trying to increase everybody's stress level. No, I think it's also, I think in general, a holistic process, right? Taking the application, the interview is the new information that we got from that day. We already knew the application stuff. So how do they do on the interview? How do they relate to the residents who might be on the interview panel, the chiefs, the faculty? You know, if we have, if there are some objective kind of measures out there like standardized questions or behavioral based questions that might have some scoring system to them or a pre-assessment thing that is done, those are all things that can be factored in as well. Yeah, I think every program is gonna do it differently in terms of who gets input, who makes the final call. And our program has had a variety of different methods that we've utilized. So I don't know what to tell you. And your interviewers are likely taking notes or completing different rubrics or different program specific information during the interview, which is why preparation for the interview is so important. And there was a comment, I think from Eric to take notes yourself as well. That's very important because this really is a process for you as the applicant. So make sure that you're taking notes and really following what feels right to you. All right, we are eight o'clock central time, which means it's time to go, but just to make sure we have one more of these sessions left, which is gonna be focused on how to do your rank list and some other questions that you may bring up through the Twitter questions that will be put out there. Thank you all for joining us. Remember, all the questions in the chat will be posted on the AAP website. And then of course this recorded session will also be posted. And of course, thank you to Amy for helping put this together. Without her support and guidance, none of this would be possible. So thank you, Amy and goodbye, everybody.

virtual interviews

PM&R residency programs

interview preparation

common interview questions

technical difficulties

post-interview communication

standing out during interviews

rank list creation

communication skills